What a mess

Due to recent changes in our group, it's been suggested by some that it would be better for me to be a member, of which I have no problems with. I have said this in the past. It really does disturb me that people I thought I could look at as a friend and trust didn't act in that manner. Since it has come to my attention that there seems to be some issues in regards to certain words used in answers, and it's not popular the particular words I use, forget the message itself, this has caused me to have a lack of trust in the site I was an Admin on to post in public. If people can say things behind your back about what you say and then force Carl to take action, how can I possibly feel free to contribute and answer there?

The answer is that I can't. What one person(s) feel is ok to say, others may not. I personally just suspect it's a popularity issue and there is someone manipulating things behind the scenes, but that's besides the point. I am extremely disturbed that if there was a problem being talked about, that not one single person bothered to contact me and say something, leaving me to hang like a sacrificial lamb. For that reason, if I am going to answer something, it's going to be on here where I cannot be penalized for particular words. If you are a word specific or sensative person, then I suggest you just close this page now, because I am a direct person and I do not bullshit nor put on a fake face in one place and be all sweet and flowery in another. I answer direct, factually and to the point.

So to start off with answers, I'm going to examine a recent post in the cichlid section. This is the particular subject of this post:

"My husband is wanting to set up a 55g for SA cichlids this fall. He wants to recreate a tank he had when he lived in West Virginia and had to give up when he moved to Florida. In it he made a network of rock caves and driftwood, which he plans to make again. For stock it had a Jack Dempsey, a Red Devil, a Green Terror, and a Pearl Scale. He kept this mix successfully for about five years but when it came time to move, the tank and everyone in it were just too big to bring down here, ok, well actually, his ex-wife just didn't want to go through the hassle so he only got to bring down the one tank, but that's another story. What do ya'll think about this mix?"

When looking in particular about the species listing, it jumps out right away that the listing is all highly aggressive in terms of South Americans. Bikeguy probably is the most experienced person out there I can think of from what I've seen in terms of South Americans. I don't keep them anymore, but I had for a short period of time, so this is not an area I am well versed in. Just thinking of the species in general, I would have to agree that this would be a very high stress high aggressive mix that probably should not be attempted.

That it had worked in the past is nice to know. It's not to even say that it cannot be done. In some tanks this could be done, which leads into the tank footprint part. With that kind of footprint, you buy say young fish a few months old, and you'll see this work out fine. These fish have not matured yet nor figured out what they are. Green Terror's alone are a fish that really shouldn't be considered to community fish at all, hence the "Terror" part of their name, nor should Red Devil's either on that same basis.

There does seem to be some mixed responses to the Jack Dempsey aspect, however, I've never really found cases where Jack Dempsey's seemed to fit in as well. On the aggression scale, it's likely to be the least aggressive by order of the Green Terror and Red Devil, but as bikeguy said, the Red Devil is no slouch. That leads you also to have to look at gender, which is also going to influence this mix as well. Gender plays a huge role in Africans, I cannot say 100% on South Americans, but if I were to speculate, I'd assume males as well are more aggressive then females too.

You should take into account, these species are also substrate spawners. This changes the dynamics of the grouping as well. Substrate spawners, when ready to breed, become incredibly aggressive. If you were to group this as all female, which would be very difficult to do if getting younger fish, this probably would work out fine. If on the other hand, you started to get a male of one of the species listed, it might possibly cross breed with a female of another and again, increase the aggression in that tank quite a bit. Even smaller South Americans such as Convicts, when breeding often take on fish 3-4 times it's size to defened it's spawn.

I am not sure what a Pearl Scale is myself, if I had to guess, it sounds like something close to a Jag or Wolf cichlid, but who knows. A scientific name would be helpful in this case, but even still, with the vast temperment issues of the listed group, I do not think it would matter much if it were mild or aggressive. I suspect this tank will look nice, grow for a few months, maybe even a year, but at some point in time, that Green Terror, Red Devil or Jack Dempsey is going to start getting assertive, push anyone weaker around and have fights just as Bikeguy said. I see no reason to think that it wouldn't occur.

There are often times you can group a mix like this and have it work out. Again, I don't think to say it can't be done would be accurate, but I do think it would better fit to say it shouldn't be done. If you were to take that grouping, same sized tank, and replicate this over a 100 or a 1000 times, I think close to 3 out of 4 times, there's going to be at a minimum, the death of at least 1 of those fish due to aggresison and tank size.

I do not feel saying that, buying them early and young it might work, and then again it might not work is useful, helpful nor even constructive. What do you take out of that? It might work, it might not work. I would have to think the asker already would know this to the most extent as it is, so how helpful is it to post something like that? I do not take pleasure to tell someone sorry don't do this, but if the facts support such a case, then that is the facts. In something like this, I'm sorry Kagome, I have big worries this grouping will not work out that all the species listed would reach adulthood. It's great your husband got this to work in the past, but I don't think it's a mix that should be condoned to give it a shot honestly. At least not with that tank footprint. I'm forced to concur with Bikeguy here that you'd need a much larger tank to safely house this group.